TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

In Turkish we have saying:
Çok konuşan çok yanılır.
Best explanation of it would be:
The half is better than the whole
or
A moderate approach often yields the best results

Having read Dr Temel Kotil’s latest interview about KAAN, it somehow brought this saying in to my mind.
Although it is nice to have someone like him in the driving seat that keeps the media and public aware of what is going on almost on a day to day basis, it is sometimes more prudent to say less.
It was unnecessary to bring other countries in to the discussion and comparing their capabilities with ours. It was illogically silly to say Turkey is ahead of Germany in aerospace and aircraft manufacturing.
Germany comes from nearly a century of aircraft and air engine manufacturing expertise background. Even though it was Sir Frank Whittle who commercially produced a jet engine first, it was the Germans who invented first Jet engine.
Due to restrictions brought by the allies their military and jet engine industry growth has been on slow step. But they have in Germany access to the eco system and expertise to manufacture fighter jets much more readily than we ever will be.
They currently manufacture Airbus planes in Germany. Their contribution to EF2000 can not be brushed aside. It was the Eurojet engineers who first utilised Blisk tech in EJ200. They have partnership of a 4.5 generation fighter jet that they help produce which has sold 680 units. And it is probably the most potent 4.5 generation fighter out there. MTU aeroengines is a very competent engine manufacturer definitely a notch or two ahead of TEI.
We have a shell in the form of KAAN, that managed to fly with US power plants. It won’t be a fighter plane until post 2028. What it actually will be, is predominantly still in digital domain or being produced.
It is a fantastic feat of engineering for a country like ours to have achieved what we have. We mustn’t belittle what our engineers have achieved. But we also need to learn to be more modest.
Yes, when it has twin TF35K engines and Burfis Radar system with our electronics and avionics, it will be ahead of anything that is presently being produced in Europe. It will be comparable to the likes of F22. But allow others to say that instead of boasting about it before it is realised.

Rodeo said:

please read what you have written and reconsider.

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Please speak openly, I had to check out if the SSB Chief's name is not Haluk Görgün but it was.

Afif said:

It's 2024, we haven't seen a prototype yet. Let alone first ignition. You expected TF35000 to be ready for mass production by 2028?

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Why not, please substantiate your claims. Is there a prerequisite by law to have spent a certain amount of time developing an engine or what? You can do anything in that time when you make the best use of time.

Zafer said:

Why not, please substantiate your claims. Is there a prerequisite by law to have spent a certain amount of time developing an engine or what? You can do anything in that time when you make the best use of time.

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It takes the most experienced fast jet engine developers many years to develop a new engine. I think the example of the M-88 timeline was given earlier in the thread.

I don't think it is a matter of substantiating why the TF35K will take many years to develop but more a matter of substantiating how it could be developed and tested in less than 5 years, given its current status. Has it even been designed yet? I have not heard that so I presume it has not.

Yes. there could be great urgency given to the TF35K development programme but there will be problems to overcome, problems that I guess will be more difficult to remedy for an inexperienced developer than for an experienced one.

I agree near total silence about project technical details is concerning to me also. But that is how it should be in defense projects. Secrecy in these projects is the rule. We were spoiled rotten during 100th year celebrations. Now we are having withdrawal symptoms: Nervousness, agitation, feelings of doom and gloom...

Zafer said:

Please speak openly, I had to check out if the SSB Chief's name is not Haluk Görgün but it was.

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I normally get triggered by your "overly-enthusiastic" takes and write some sentences to bring it down to earth but at the end I delete what I type, thinking "he means well, why discourage it". But this is a new level even for you.

Here, Temel Kotil, who is a disney level optimist, who believes baklava makes all these achievements possible, says he is hopeful that the engine will fly for the first time in 2028-2029. And you are claiming that this engine, which does not exist yet, will/can be mass manufactured in 2028? I'm sorry but this is pure delusion. It has no basis in reality. It just reflects that your limbic system has full authority over your prefrontal cortex.

Spitfire9 said:

It takes the most experienced fast jet engine developers many years to develop a new engine. I think the example of the M-88 timeline was given earlier in the thread.

I don't think it is a matter of substantiating why the TF35K will take many years to develop but more a matter of substantiating how it could be developed and tested in less than 5 years, given its current status. Has it even been designed yet? I have not heard that so I presume it has not.

Yes. there could be great urgency given to the TF35K development programme but there will be problems to overcome, problems that I guess will be more difficult to remedy for an inexperienced developer than for an experienced one.

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I suggest you read below page re @Cabatli_TR posts on the matter.
The engine for the TFX has been on the drawing board for many years. Even before 2018. (TR Motor was formed in April 2017)

There is a consortium that is responsible for the design, and a consortium that is responsible for production.
Where they are with the project is anybody’s guess at the moment. But with Kale who are partners with RR, being in the fold for both design and production and TEI being the integral part of the project gives us the confidence we seek. Especially as RR are involved in the design stage too makes it more viable
The timeline for this engine was given as 2025-26 first ignition and 2028 as first flight and serial production to follow.
There are rumours flying around that even the outside casing of the engine has been manufactured.
But as you have rightfully pointed out if the design/development stage is not behind us today and the engine is not physically being manufactured, then the timeline is going to be extended.
Below is TEI MD Prof Aksit’s take, on the job they have signed up for. Even he doesn’t believe the timescale is achievable.

Spitfire9 said:

It takes the most experienced fast jet engine developers many years to develop a new engine. I think the example of the M-88 timeline was given earlier in the thread.

I don't think it is a matter of substantiating why the TF35K will take many years to develop but more a matter of substantiating how it could be developed and tested in less than 5 years, given its current status. Has it even been designed yet? I have not heard that so I presume it has not.

Yes. there could be great urgency given to the TF35K development programme but there will be problems to overcome, problems that I guess will be more difficult to remedy for an inexperienced developer than for an experienced one.

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An engine with some problems is still an engine that can fly in a good capacity and preferable to foreign sourced engines.

Rodeo said:

I normally get triggered by your "overly-enthusiastic" takes and write some sentences to bring it down to earth but at the end I delete what I type, thinking "he means well, why discourage it". But this is a new level even for you.

Here, Temel Kotil, who is a disney level optimist, who believes baklava makes all these achievements possible, says he is hopeful that the engine will fly for the first time in 2028-2029. And you are claiming that this engine, which does not exist yet, will/can be mass manufactured in 2028? I'm sorry but this is pure delusion. It has no basis in reality. It just reflects that your limbic system has full authority over your prefrontal cortex.

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I agree with you. But we was surprised with Kaan in the same way. Out of nowhere, they presented a 5.gen fighter jet.

@Zafer

The discussion can get heated up. I understand this, but it is unacceptable to rely on personal insults like "dumbass" and especially to a moderator. I know you and you are respectful the most of the time so we will deescalate, count it as a mistake and leave it here, but I will not accept such a behavior, targeting guys from the team and in the future we may consider harsher response.

For discussion, suggestions or trouble with moderators please use the feature below. We will have a civilized discussion and can talk about whatever troubles you.


Warning was given and message deleted. Be respectful!

As you know, even 4.5th gen F-16s are getting weaker laser weapons via pods. Next generation F-35s are almost certainly going to have destructive, longer range laser weapons. Without ignoring these developments, what do you think about having a 3rd generator on a future 6th gen. KAAN for directed energy weapons. TAI CEO keeps talking about man-unmanned 6th gen plans, ANKA-3+KAAN co-operation. But we have never heard anything about DEWs, which is the most important feature of a 6th gen fighter after hypersonic engines.

This conversation always goes round in circles. The authorities don’t specify if the Kaans will be using TF35k in serial production or in testing in 2028. TF35k seems like it will be one of those secretive projects like Gezgin or Akbaba. It might exist only on paper or it might already be a prototype undergoing tests for all we know. With the lack of public information on this issue I wouldn’t make any hard predictions.

DBdev said:

As you know, even 4.5th gen F-16s are getting weaker laser weapons via pods. Next generation F-35s are almost certainly going to have destructive, longer range laser weapons. Without ignoring these developments, what do you think about having a 3rd generator on a future 6th gen. KAAN for directed energy weapons. TAI CEO keeps talking about man-unmanned 6th gen plans, ANKA-3+KAAN co-operation. But we have never heard anything about DEWs, which is the most important feature of a 6th gen fighter after hypersonic engines.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1790062134161813868

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2x150 kW. There is no need for a third generator as the space allocated to current generators can house even bigger ones but there is no need as there is no subsystem to take advantage of it for the KAAN block 10.



There won't be a laser weapon for KAAN Block 10 but there is a project to arm KAAN with high-powered laser weapons for later blocks. The project is classified.

There is a soft schedule/target dates for the engine of KAAN similar to the first flight date of KAAN.
The first ignition will be in 2026.
The first flight will be in December 2028. Everybody push hard for this date but it might be delayed to 2029.
The first serial production will be in 2031 but this one also might be delayed to 2032.

TheInsider said:

There won't be a laser weapon for KAAN Block 10 but there is a project to arm KAAN with high-powered laser weapons for later blocks.

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I am curious to see how we (or anyone for that matter) are going to solve the issue of making a laser weapon omnidirectional without compromising stealth too much, as they are supposed to be defensive weapons against missiles.

I am highly doubtful of "pods", as they are being touted now, being that useful since they are pointed one way; even in Lockheed Martin's video you can see they are showing F-16 down a missile aimed at a different plane, rather than actually defend itself with the pod.

@TheInsider wow you really have the best info. Thank you very much.

Do you have any insider info on TF-6000 tests? I am most curious about that. What is the real life maximum thrust? Maximum heat reached in the hot section? Were there any problems that could affect, delay KAAN's engine. Since TF-6000 was supposed to be an engine that demonstrates turbofan capabilities of Turkish nation. Which as big a deal as KAAN itself IMHO.

Yasar_TR said:

The engine for the TFX has been on the drawing board for many years. Even before 2018. (TR Motor was formed in April 2017)

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Thanks. I was unaware of that.

I wonder if a prototype has been built, tested and meets requirements.

If in fact the engine has not yet been built first run is is going to be in 2026, to me there remains a level of uncertainty that the engine will be ready for 2028/2029 flight in KAAN.

DBdev said:

@TheInsider wow you really have the best info. Thank you very much.

Do you have any insider info on TF-6000 tests? I am most curious about that. What is the real life maximum thrust? Maximum heat reached in the hot section? Were there any problems that could affect, delay KAAN's engine. Since TF-6000 was supposed to be an engine that demonstrates turbofan capabilities of Turkish nation. Which as big a deal as KAAN itself IMHO.

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Although the testing campaign accumulated over a hundred hours of engine operation time, the engine is yet to be tested at maxed-out conditions. There will be new iterative TF-6000 prototypes but there won't be as many as TS-1400. It seems that 6000lbf will be achieved without forcing the engine a lot. The engine might hit 6500+lbf with optimizations. There are no major problems till now except the known problem of auxiliary systems.

Crowning Achievement? Kaan and the Turkish Defense Industry https://warontherocks.com/2024/05/c...-and-turkeys-defense-industrial-achievements/

More accolades for Turkey

Fatman17 said:

Crowning Achievement? Kaan and the Turkish Defense Industry https://warontherocks.com/2024/05/c...-and-turkeys-defense-industrial-achievements/

More allocades for Turkey

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Bunch of blah, blah. You won't learn anything useful or new by reading about Turkish defense industry from these lame passive-aggressive foreign website articles. Twitter and this site are all you need.

Fatman17 said:

Crowning Achievement? Kaan and the Turkish Defense Industry https://warontherocks.com/2024/05/c...-and-turkeys-defense-industrial-achievements/

More allocades for Turkey

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Did you read the article before sharing? The entire article is loaded against us.

"However, the resulting hype around Kaan is not entirely justified. Turkey relied heavily on foreign support to develop Kaan, undercutting government claims that it is a triumph of indigenous design and raising questions about its ability to progress beyond a prototype."

"This path in practice requires a level of political alignment with either the United States and NATO or, arguably, other defense-industrial powers such as Russia and China, to which Turkey has not yet been willing to commit."

"Whether or not Turkey’s successful, albeit short and operationally limited, test flight of Kaan will pull through into a militarily and commercially successful fifth-generation aircraft franchise remains to be seen. And to an extent, it still relies on the goodwill of external partners such as the United States. "

Not to mention, referring to the terrorists with a more favourable name that'll make it sound like we are attacking a legitimate organisation to their target audience which has no idea about who they are:

"Turkey focused on drones deemed critical to Ankara’s fight against the Kurdistan Workers’ Party and put at risk as relations with Israel deteriorated."

I swear we need media literacy courses on this forum, this isn't even the 10th article like this that praises Turkey on the surface in certain ways while loading up the entire thing against us with the way it is written.